Tithing Treasures, Time and Talents You Ignorant Lying Thief...

Tithing Treasures, Time and Talents You Ignorant, Lying Thief...

Based on a Post about a short, little, inspirational video, https://youtu.be/FA4Ce1qOSXw.

***If you don't read this, that's OK, I typically don't read LOOOONG posts either... they can get to be a bit tedious... I understand. IF you do read this, thanks for taking your time to read it, comment on it if you feel the need to, and understand, initially, my original post, had nothing to do with this post, but it came together for some reason... if you would like more info about this topic, I will be happy to provide some Theological, Scholarly Articles and Commentaries which support a more contextual position. Tradition is not Truth...

The Other Day...

The other day I posted this random little video w/ a "short commentary...."A friend of mine stated, as follows: "Thanks for your tithing post. I was so irritated after the visiting pastor's sermon on Sunday I would not go back and hear him on Wednesday. Never mind the hundreds of hours both ______ and I have volunteered to that church over the past _______years. It's all worthless because I don't give 10 percent. I am ignorant and a thief, and get called as much in front of my children.I guess I should go back to work so that we can be more financially secure and ________should stop serving so that we can dedicate more time to make more money. They'll be out a ___________, a helper, at one point a _________________, someone who advances Christ in the community with young children. But hey, at least they'll get paid.Oh yeah. According to the guy they brought in on Sunday, if you don't tithe, you're ignorant and a thief. And if you argue from the new testament that tithing is done away with you're a theological legalist and bound to give the 100 percent the Bible requires.I have a good, very Biblically literate friend who set out to prove me wrong on tithing. She discovered SHE was wrong and has been very discouraged by the vehemence with which she was attacked when she would even ask questions in the course of her study.It was a sermon about how to follow Jesus and talked about things that Christians should be doing. And of course he said there were too many things to mention... and it had three points but of course it just so happened that he spent much of his time, energy and sharp words on tithing. _________was not there, he was home with ________, who was sick. I don't think either of us would stop serving over something like that. But i do think their fervor to guilt people is fueled by their financial missteps. You know me, I don't mind quietly disagreeing, but i don't appreciate being called a thief and undermined in front of my children when we are donating 5-7 percent of our income and have literally donated hundreds, if not thousands, of hours in service and literal talents."**My friend who wrote this to me was referencing what I had written which I will include below.... incredibly, I was preaching at another Church that day, and I had not even heard the visiting pastor's sermon... so, my commentary wasn't even directed toward this message. I have listened to this message since then, and frankly, it is upsetting. You can listen to it yourself if you would like here: http://bellshoals.com/sermon/real-christianity/

--My friend shared that the man stated that people are ignorant and thieves, but I believe he called them liars as well... I listened again, and yes, he calls them, liars and thieves...

"AMAN... GOD BLESS YA.... " "IF YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN... YOU'RE GONNA BE STUCK WITH HIM FOR ETERNITY..." "DO YOU LOVE EACH OTHER..." "WE GET MAD OVER THE LEAST, LITTLE, INSIGNIFICANT, NON-ETERNAL THINGS..." "PASTOR, I'M DOING SO GOOD, I'M TITHING 7%... EXCUSE ME, 7%... YOU'RE NOT ONLY A THIEF, YOU'RE A LIAR!" "YOU'RE NOT TITHING... TITHING MEANS 10%!" "YOU CAN'T GIVE AN OFFERING UNTIL YOU GIVE YOUR TITHE..." "YOU GIVE TO THE TV PREACHER... WELL, CALL HIM WHEN YOUR DEAD, OR IN THE HOSPITAL..."

**These little quips/quotes were to make light of his speech, and make light of the berating attack on believers/followers of Christ to make his message seem more friendly and humorous, but to those that are not IGNORANT to his verbiage, it was a further scathing attack on those that don't give like the traditionalist has been taught. They are a divisive measure to lighten the message, manipulate the audience into thinking it's somewhat funny that he's making fun of the non-10%'ers, and the sad thing is, most people believe him, and many of those laughing are the vast majority of that group he's making fun of...

That's right Reverend "R", "Tithe" means 10%, and YES, I know how to spell it.... but you only know what you've been told "Dr..." which not only makes you a traditionalist... it makes you a liar if you don't know and teach the truth! You're daddy taught you what tithing means, you taught your boys what tithing means... and you learned it, NOT by the study of the system of tithing, but by your own and others leading of tradition....

He also referenced that famous tithing passage, Malachi 3, which states, 8 Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. 9 You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. 10 Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. 11 I will rebuke the devourer [b] for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the Lord of hosts. 12 Then all nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the Lord of hosts."

--Most people read verses 8-9...  and don't pay a whole lot of attention to verses 10 - 12 which clearly points to bringing FOOD into the storehouse and when you  bring your crops, the land, the crops, the soil, the fruit of the vine, etc...  will be blessed and a "land of delight..."
Further, most people do not even know that these passages were written by Malachi to the Priests...

I followed up with this post, because, well, it annoyed me...  yeah, I suppose the Church does get quite annoyed at little, insignificant things...  things that crawl under our skin and fester...  maybe because we forgot the point of needing to take care of the weightier matter of things...  Yeah, well, Roc was right...  he was going to preach and be gone again... he's got his cushy position up in TN, and it's got to be good, and I'm certain I'm not going to make any new friends or have any hope of increasing my odds of being called on to speak like he gets to speak...  That's OK, I'm accepting my calling...  a thorn in the side of our faith, and a thorn in my own side as well...  I'm not going to fight it any longer...  I appreciate the ministry God is giving me. I'm glad to be able to be part of something bigger than me...  bigger than Roc, bigger than all the Church buildings combined in all of human history.  I am glad that I am a man that is willing to speak out (at times) against things that sometimes aren't "exactly accurate..."  FOR the RECORD...  I know already that I am not "exactly accurate" either... and that's a lot of the time.  I hope I'm like that tax collector bowing before the Lord, not even being willing to look up to the Lord saying, "Lord, please forgive me...  a sinner."  Instead of being like the Pharisee with his chest puffed up, his head held high, his voice elevated to the sky, saying, "Lord, I'm glad I am a tither and not like that Tax Collector."  Going back to being annoyed...  I was annoyed that my friends were hurt by the message, and I know they weren't the only ones, I am annoyed that men place a yoke of burden on the shoulders of believers based on tradition and not actual truthful instruction.  It's interesting the path that this message went in a few different directions, and it ended on a legalistic, traditional view point, not scriptural instruction.  The only Scripture "referenced" was Malachi 3:10...  and that passage is NOT the FINAL authority on giving, but it is quite often treated as such and typically done manipulatively to guilt people into believing they are "thieves, liars and ignorant..."

Reverend "R", you've got a lot of people loving your message, a lot of good laughs, even some that re-quoted you from Wednesday night which was a nice little quote...  The Bible is the only Book, when opened, the Author shows up...  as many were impressed with, and true...  It's a good word...  You were wrong however...  I doubt you'll ever actually research the topic of OT Tithing, and you are right about giving it all in the NT, and your statement about bringing up house keys and car keys is pretty spot on too, but why don't we go back to the Book of Acts and actually start looking at the humble beginnings of the early Church...  which had nothing to do with Mega-Multi-Campus-Business-Corporate Structures...  ahem, in short, the Temple System...  And brother, in all love and respect, the moment you started telling the Congregation to bring up their car keys and house keys, yours, sir, should have been the first one's laid on the steps...  oh wait, they should be laid on the steps at your Church, because it would be inappropriate to give to another ministry that quite possibly, God might be telling someone to give to someone in need...  But, we wouldn't want to really honor an Acts type Church giving and coming together as one...  which really hasn't happened since, well the time of Acts.

My Original Post on the Short Video: 

86,400

Very Inspiring Short Video... As "SBC" people, we love to use terms like, we should be "tithing" our time, our talent and our treasures... this is a very nice way of saying (and manipulating) people into giving a "tenth" of all they earn to the Church... respectfully, if you are doing that and more, God Bless You! But those proponents, a good majority (which means MOST), who are trying to get people to give a "tithe" and try to "dumb it down" by saying our talent and time as well, never live up to this calling which they adhere... this young man gives a perfect example of what needs to be done with the time we are given... He says, 86,400 is the "magic" number... only a tenth of that would be 8,640, which would equate to 2 hours, 40 minutes. If we are so adamant about giving of our treasures, and when we say we should be including of our talents and time in that, are they giving 2 hours, 40 minutes, "religiously?" Are you giving of your talents in the same manner? What is your talent? Do you even know what it is? Are you investing at minimum 10% of it if you are so dedicated to the tithe of your treasures?
 BTW, which means, (By The Way), if you were to actually do some research on the context of tithing, you might find out quickly that that tenth that you hold to, is not even nearly meeting the requirements in the scriptures... that giving that you have been traditionally taught, so you can meet the "standard" by which others have taught, ingrained into you, is far from meeting what you are really supposed to be giving... this man, Elvis, (you got to love that name), shares what Jesus was talking about to the Pharisees as He said to them, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." Matthew 23:23...
Maybe, just maybe, if the Church were to teach what it means to actually be giving biblically, the "Script would get flipped" and 10% of the Church wouldn't be supporting the Church, but maybe, just maybe, if the Church wouldn't put a "yoke of burden" on the people, they would be giving from their heart as the Bible dictates... in time, talent and possibly in their treasures... That's my 2 Cents.... hmmm.. who's face is engraved on these coins....

Adversity-vs-Requests or Job 2:10-vs-John 14:14

A friend asks, "Question: when God does not grant what we feel is a reasonable request for intervention in a difficult situation, is this an example of the "adversity" referenced in Job 2:10? If so, does this contradict John 14:14?"

Job 2:10 says, "But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips."
John 14:14 states, ""If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."

Let's look at the context of John 14:14.  It seems as though Jesus is talking about the works in His ministry and what the Father is doing, and then He continues after this and shares about the Spirit being given to those who have faith in Him.  When Jesus says "anything" does He truly mean anything or does He mean something in relation to this context?  Surely, people use this particular verse to justify their own ideology that this is God's free ticket to whatever it is they ask for, and this couldn't be further from the truth.

Now the question was, "When God doesn't grant what we feel is a reasonable request for intervention in a difficult situation..."  Obviously, I don't need to know the situation in order to address this question.  I think that the Bible infers that our requests being made to the Lord need to be in accordance with His will and purposes, so we need to ask, "Is this God's Will?"  Not only that, but also, will this bring glory to God?

What is a considered a reasonable request to God?  I am certain most people probably believe that their requests are reasonable and in accordance with God's will for their lives.  I can't speak upon everyone's behalf, and I can only speak upon my own experiences, experiences I have heard of, and what I think the Bible says about it.  I recall that George Mueller was a man of prayer as he cared for orphans, and I have heard of God's miracle provisions in his life, but I have heard of his story of years of praying for salvation of some friends with some of those prayers going "unanswered" for many years...  The Stories are as follows:

• "The children are dressed and ready for school. But there is no food for them to eat," the housemother of the orphanage informed George Mueller. George asked her to take the 300 children into the dining room and have them sit at the tables. He thanked God for the food and waited. George knew God would provide food for the children as he always did. Within minutes, a baker knocked on the door. "Mr. Mueller," he said, "last night I could not sleep. Somehow I knew that you would need bread this morning. I got up and baked three batches for you. I will bring it in."
• Soon, there was another knock at the door. It was the milkman. His cart had broken down in front of the orphanage. The milk would spoil by the time the wheel was fixed. He asked George if he could use some free milk. George smiled as the milkman brought in ten large cans of milk. It was just enough for the 300 thirsty children."
• http://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/church-history-for-kids/george-mueller-orphanages-built-by-prayer-11634869.html

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• George Muller a man of prayer and man of faith.  A definite prayer of importunity follows:
• In November, 1844, I began to pray for the conversion of five individuals. I prayed every day without a single intermission, whether sick or in health, on the land or on the sea, and whatever the pressure of my engagements might be.
• Eighteen months elapsed before the first five was converted. I thanked God and prayed on for the others.
• Five years elapsed, and then the second was converted. I thanked God for the second, and prayed on for the other three.
• Day by day I continued to pray for them, and six years passed before the third was converted. I thanked God for the three and went on praying for the other two.
• These two remained unconverted.
• "The man to whom God in the riches of his grace has given tens of thousands of answers to prayer in the self-same hour or day in which they were offered has been praying day by day for nearly 36 years for the conversion of these individuals, and yet they remain unconverted. But I hope in God, I pray on, and look yet for the answer. They are not converted yet, but they will be."
• This was the faith that carried him through every straitened place. He met emergencies by asking and in due time God supplied whatever the need might be.
• Those prayers? You ask. In 1897, those two men, sons of a friend of Mr. Muller’s youth, were not converted, after he had entreated God in their behalf for 52 years daily. But after his death God brought them in the fold.
• http://www.wgbd.org/george-muller.html

I have prayed what I believed were reasonable requests, and it took a long time for an answer to those prayers, but they were answered.  I have been praying a long time for a situation, and I still don't see the light ahead, so does it mean that God is not answering those requests, or does it mean I am experiencing some adversity?  I have prayed at times, and seen God work the very same day in answering that prayer.  I can honestly say that it has been surprising at times!  I have prayed that God would give me the opportunity to share the Gospel with someone in the course of the week, and He has certainly opened those doors.  

Now the second part of this question states, "s this an example of the "adversity" referenced in Job 2:10?"  Job 2:9-10 states, "9 His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”  10 He replied, “You are talking like a foolish[b] woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”  In all this, Job did not sin in what he said."

Does adversity exist in the life of those that trust God?  Absolutely!  But God has a purpose in all circumstances.  I am reminded of the Apostle's inquiry regarding the blind man.
John 9 says, "1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.2And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" 3Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.…"

The blind man's "adversity" wasn't due to God's action against him, but the adversity existed throughout this man's entire life, so that God may be eventually glorified in the world through his adversity.  He was blind his entire life until Jesus came onto the scene.

I am also reminded of Paul's "thorn" that God never removed as far as the scriptures indicate.  Does the greatest of Apostle's experience adversity due to his lack of faith?  I know the question is not regarding the amount of faith a person has in relation to God's action, but it would seem that if God not acting upon our behalf or acting "negatively" is Him bringing upon His people some sort of plight or tribulation.  Does God allow tribulations?  Absolutely, but they never exist without a purpose in glorifying Him and without an eventual purpose.  A purpose which we may never understand or may never even come to know in our human lifetime.

Are we experiencing adversity from the Lord when it seems He does not respond immediately or obviously to our requests from Him?  I think, IMO, not necessarily.  I think the adversity and tribulation we receive is for another purpose entirely, but I also don't think that our inquiries to Christ are a "free ticket" to having our requests to be fulfilled.  I believe Christ will give us anything we ask in His name according to His will and the Father's will, so this is what it all comes down to...  is it God's will and if not, maybe we should try to discover God's will in the situation.  

Another thought is that Job was a very unique story in the Bible.  Certainly, many believers suffered under great trials, tribulations and even death, but Job's story is so complex and shows great detail in how all the events came about and then the revelation of his faith, and God's faithfulness.  It shows Satan seeking permission to afflict him, it shows God granting that permission, it shows Job's faith despite his wife's frustration, and then it shows how friends should minister and how friends should NOT minister, and it shows God's sovereignty.  

I don't know if I have really answered your question.  But I think adversity exist to draw us to God, not in response to our prayers and requests.  So, maybe tribulations exist to make us pray.  It would seem some of the most memorable prayer moments in the Bible come from times of tribulation.  

Where prayers were made to petition God, we can see God answering those prayers in time.  Some immediately, but some not so quickly or how we might expect.

I don't think there is any contradiction, because I don't think these are directly related.  Job prayed for his kids and on behalf of his kids, but God still allowed them to be taken.  And, asking Jesus for anything in His name must relate to the full context of what He was sharing with the Apostles, and I think that was mainly seeking God's will and glory in His work in their lives and not a particular situation.

I hope this helps, and as I think of more, I'll try to add to this.  Furthermore, I don't know if anyone else has ever commented about these two verses being related in any way.

Blessings Brother.